“I’m amazed at the speed at which he [Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost] has stepped into the shoes of the pope. He’s comfortable, giving leadership, and he is fulfilling the aspirations of the people. So, I’m very enthusiastic. That’s why I repeatedly say it’s only the Lord who could have chosen the man, prepared the man and given him to us.”
That is what Cardinal Oswald Gracias, archbishop emeritus of Bombay (Mumbai), told America’s Vatican correspondent in this exclusive interview on May 17, given at Santa Marta, the Vatican guesthouse where most cardinals stayed during the conclave and where Pope Francis had lived and died. He attended the pre-conclave meetings of cardinals (known as General Congregations) but could not vote for the election of the new pope as he had turned 80 on Dec. 24, 2024.
One of Asia’s most distinguished prelates, Cardinal Gracias was appointed archbishop of Bombay, India, in 2006, by Pope Benedict and made a cardinal in 2007. He served as president of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India and the Federation of Asian Bishops’ Conferences (2013-2019). He also participated in the 2013 conclave that elected Pope Francis.
In this interview, Cardinal Gracias spoke not only about his great joy at the election of Leo XIV but also about his close relationship with Pope Francis, his membership of the council of cardinal advisors (C9) and why he considers Francis a saint and prays to him daily.
We’ve got a new pope. Were you surprised?
I am delighted. I’m surprised because he wasn’t on the list named in the media or in the discussions, but he had a low profile and was a person ideally prepared. So, for me it was a moment of ecstasy, of joy. Once again, my faith is strengthened. The Holy Spirit is with the church and made his presence felt forcefully at this conclave. I was at the last conclave. I felt it then, and I see it very clearly this time too; it would not have been possible without the Holy Spirit’s intervention for 133 leaders of the church to come together and in 24 hours to get a two thirds majority for a common candidate.
I met Leo before he became pope. He’s so well prepared, so very authentic, so much that I feel he is a response from God. The Holy Spirit has given us a pope that we need, that the church needs and that the world needs at this time in history. I think the pope should be a leader of the world, a moral leader of the world.
It’s a very smooth transition, and I think it is God’s will. Looking around, I can honestly say there was no one as well prepared as he, no one more suitable than him [to be elected pope]. So, for me, it’s a moment of faith, a moment of joy, a moment of real expectation and hope and looking forward. Asia would like to give the maximum collaboration with him.
You’ve met him and talked to him. How would you describe him?
I’ve met him a few times [before he became pope], and we’ve had serious discussions on matters that I was studying. I found it delightful to talk to him. I found him very intelligent. He gets to the point immediately. He is observant. He is not talkative; you have got to ask him questions and then he is very open. I found he is a man who knows his mind, a man who sees the problem, a man who loves the church so much, a man who’s really got the spirituality of a religious who’s so committed to the church—maybe it’s the Augustinian spirit. He’s got a deep inner strength to be able to face difficulties. That’s what I felt. Perhaps it’s his prayer life, it’s a spirituality with deep inner strength.
He’s not Francis II, he’s Leo XIV. That’s very clear from his personality, from my discussion with him, and yet he is fully in the line of Pope Francis, in priorities, in the direction of the church, in theology, political life, ethics, economics. I think he’s the ideal man for the church [at this time in history]. I really thank the Holy Spirit for making his presence forcefully felt in the conclave.
As you look ahead, what do you see?
I see a very clear continuity with Francis. I see a building on [Francis’ legacy]. I see a pope who will be relevant [to people]; his messages will be relevant. He already has spoken of artificial intelligence, he has spoken of a new “Rerum Novarum,” and he has spoken repeatedly of peace, that was his first word, and he’s been repeating it at different levels ever since.
I was very happy that he’s open to all. He was not just sitting in the Dicastery for Bishops, he was open to the world. He is up to date with the challenges; he knows what the world, not just the church, is facing. He knows the economic problems, the ideological problems, the political problems that artificial intelligence can bring about; it can destabilize the world in so many ways and could take control and dehumanize the world.
I also find him very systematic and strategic in the sense that he knows where he’s going; he has a plan, greater than his talks have shown. There’s a certain process, a certain plan, and he’s going about that. I’m amazed at the speed at which he has stepped into the shoes of the pope. He’s comfortable, giving leadership and he is fulfilling the aspirations of the people. So, I’m very enthusiastic. That’s why I repeatedly say it’s only the Lord who could have chosen the man, prepared the man, and given him to us.
You were present in his first meeting with all the cardinals, which lasted about two hours. How did you read it?
I felt the meeting was a message to the cardinals. The message was this: “You are important to me, I will need your help, I need your assistance to lead the church.”
I think he had heard most of what they were saying before, so he did not need to take notes. Once again, he gave his priorities of following Vatican II, making sure that the church goes ahead on the line of Francis—synodality. But he also spoke of us working together. It was a good meeting, but I think the meeting was more to say, “I like to listen,” and to tell the cardinals, “I need you. Thank you. I need your help.” I think that was more than just a meeting, that was the message.
You were with Francis throughout his pontificate. You were one of the members of his Council of Cardinal Advisors (C9), from the beginning to the end. What remains in your heart from that experience?
I appreciate it now. I mean, I regret I didn’t appreciate it even more before, but when I look back at these years, I would say it was a spiritual experience, a personally growing experience in the church. When he appointed me, I remember asking the Secretary of State, Cardinal Bertone, “What am I supposed to do?” He said, “I don't know. But the pope said to contact you and tell you that he wants you to be at the service of the church.” I said, “I feel I am not competent, I don’t deserve this, but whatever he wants I will do.”
And so when we came together, I thought it would be once or twice a year, like [happens] with the Vatican congregations, but in the very first meeting, October [2013], Francis said, “I want to meet you all regularly here,” and he gave us the dates for the following meetings. Then I was surprised that the meetings were well prepared, they were serious; there was follow up, they were consequential. There was an agenda which he approved. [Cardinal] Oscar Maradiaga was our coordinator, and he prepared them well. Oscar would often sit with me to sort of discuss the last meeting and to prepare the next meeting. The Holy Father took us very seriously and I think he took many of his major decisions in consultation with us [C9].
He may not have discussed them in depth, because it was his own Francis style. He would throw out an idea and then ask, “what do you think about this?” And then, only much later, did we realize why he asked us that, because he was testing the ground for something. So I think it [the C9] was a group with which he shared openly what he was thinking, what he was planning, and he took the group very seriously. It was not just a mere consultative group. He took important decisions in consultation with us.
I want to honestly say I sometimes disagreed with him and told him so. I wanted him to see a different perspective; I always felt, in honesty, that I should tell him that I didn’t fully agree on something. But, looking back, he was right so often. I suppose he had the grace of state, he had the wisdom. The [C9] experience has deepened my own faith in the church.
I want to say also he is a saint; he was a man who took his decisions in prayer. I’ve often asked him, “Why do you say this?” And he would say, “I feel Jesus wants it” or, as he said on several occasions, “The Lord wants this.” I think he took his decisions in the chapel in prayer. He was a very human person; he would joke with us at the beginning, and tease us, and vice versa. So, there was the human side of Francis also which I saw in these meetings, he would laugh. But passionately he wanted to do what is best for the church without any hesitation. Again, he was a man who was unafraid. He was aware of opposition, I want to say that. There was obstruction, and I spoke to him also about it, but he was unafraid.
He never cowed down out of fear. He went ahead knowing the Lord wanted it, and that his mission as the head of the church was to lead the church. He was brave, authentic, determined to spend himself for the church, unafraid of death. I spoke about security to him, but he was unafraid of death. He was confident the Lord would protect him as long as he was needed. He was a very dedicated man. I pray to him already.
Is there something that you take away very personally from him?
I found him very caring. When I was unwell, he was concerned. He was the pope, I was a bishop, but I felt he was a friend. He cared for you, was concerned about you and wanted to help you; he wanted to be there if you needed him. He often asked me about work and so on; he wanted to see if he could help. So I will certainly miss him.
He wanted to go to India, but he never got there, and it was not his fault or yours.
I would say I was the point man—both the Vatican’s point man and the Indian government’s point man. It was his intense desire to come to India, he often asked me. I don’t know if I should have been more aggressive with the government, but there was an official invitation, everybody knows that. I spoke to the Prime Minister personally several times on behalf of Pope Francis and the Prime Minister [Modi] always wanted [him to come]. Francis, more than once, said he liked Modi. He was fond of Modi, because every time he met him they connected, but he never came to India. I don’t know why? Whose fault was it? Maybe all of us are collectively responsible. I’m sorry about it. I feel sorry I didn’t fulfill that wish of his that told me at the very beginning.
Francis told me that as a young Jesuit, he had dreams of working in India or Japan. He mentioned both these countries and said he would have wanted to come and work there. But, he said, “I never came, but I would like to come and see the place.” I must say, because I want to be fair, the government also had private talks with me about his visit, and it got derailed. I think there were forces against it.
You mean political forces.
Yes, political forces did not allow it. They [the government] kept telling me “Yes, yes, yes.” We had many discussions, and we made progress, but then suddenly they went back on the progress.
Maybe his successor, Leo XIV,will visit India as pope?
I hope so.
