U.S. bishops meet with Pope Francis, tell him sexual abuse has ‘lacerated’ the church

 Pope Francis meets with officials representing the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops at the Vatican Sept. 13. Pictured from left are Archbishop Jose H. Gomez of Los Angeles, vice president of the conference, Cardinal Daniel N. DiNardo of Galveston-Houston, president of conference, Cardinal Sean P. O'Malley of Boston, president of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors, and Msgr. J. Brian Bransfield, general secretary of the conference. (CNS photo/Vatican Media)   Pope Francis meets with officials representing the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops at the Vatican Sept. 13. Pictured from left are Archbishop Jose H. Gomez of Los Angeles, vice president of the conference, Cardinal Daniel N. DiNardo of Galveston-Houston, president of conference, Cardinal Sean P. O'Malley of Boston, president of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors, and Msgr. J. Brian Bransfield, general secretary of the conference. (CNS photo/Vatican Media) 

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The leaders of the U.S. bishops' conference said they shared with Pope Francis how the church in the United States has been "lacerated by the evil of sexual abuse."

"He listened very deeply from the heart," said a statement released after the meeting Sept. 13.

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Cardinal Daniel N. DiNardo, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, met the pope at the Vatican along with Cardinal Sean P. O'Malley of Boston, president of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors, Archbishop Jose H. Gomez of Los Angeles, vice president of the USCCB, and Msgr. J. Brian Bransfield, general secretary of the conference. 

The USCCB statement described the encounter as "a lengthy, fruitful and good exchange," but did not enter into details about what was discussed or whether any concrete measures were taken or promised.

"We look forward to actively continuing our discernment together, identifying the most effective next steps," the statement said.

"We look forward to actively continuing our discernment together, identifying the most effective next steps," the statement said.

Cardinal DiNardo originally announced that he was requesting a meeting with Pope Francis last Aug. 16. The request followed the release of the Pennsylvania grand jury report on sexual abuse cases in six Pennsylvania dioceses and the announcement of credible allegations of child sexual abuse committed by Archbishop Theodore E. McCarrick, the former cardinal-archbishop of Washington. Two dioceses also had announced allegations of inappropriate contact between Archbishop McCarrick and seminarians, resulting in settlements totaling more than $100,000.

In his Aug. 16 statement, Cardinal DiNardo said that the USCCB Executive Committee had established three goals: "an investigation into the questions surrounding Archbishop McCarrick; an opening of new and confidential channels for reporting complaints against bishops; and advocacy for more effective resolution of future complaints."

The U.S. bishops specifically requested the Vatican to conduct an apostolic visitation into questions surrounding Archbishop McCarrick. Opening a new process for reporting complaints against bishops and the more effective resolution of such complaints also would require the support and involvement of the Vatican, since only the pope has the authority to discipline or remove bishops.

Following allegations by Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano that Pope Benedict XVI had imposed sanctions on Archbishop McCarrick and that those sanctions had been ignored by Pope Francis, Cardinal DiNardo issued another statement Aug. 27 reiterating his call "for a prompt and thorough examination into how the grave moral failings of a brother bishop could have been tolerated for so long."

Archbishop Vigano's statement "brings particular focus and urgency to this examination," the cardinal's statement said. "The questions raised deserve answers that are conclusive and based on evidence."

 

J Cosgrove
5 days 14 hours ago

This may be the Holy Spirit working to refocus the Church.

Damage control must come first. By that I don't mean white washing what the guilty priests etc have done. Then a complete fix so it doesn't happen again.

They must focus on what the Church is about, not just getting rid of the bad apples.

James Haraldson
5 days 8 hours ago

That won't happen until Pope Phony resigns, which will never happen given his dedication to the ethos of the sex revolution, including the offspring of the sex revolution: abortion.

Tim O'Leary
5 days 8 hours ago

J - I believe the Holy Spirit is always working, sometimes strengthening a weak soul and at other times chastizing a proud soul. He let's humanity have their freedom, but his promises will never be reversed, including protecting the Church from teaching error. That is how our doctrine has withstood the secular avalanche of sexual libertinism. Even if many Catholics, clergy and laity failed to follow the true doctrine, the doctrine is preserved. This problem is certainly one of discipline, and many have failed to follow the doctrine. So, they are being chastised by the Spirit.

Trent Shannon
4 days 18 hours ago

The word youre looking for is "repair" - (damage control was the problem behind the cover up)

Keep faith there are changes already in play now going forward. For me, repair would be any living abusers, facilitators being made to present themselves for criminal charges in the countries they were committed.

Call it "rendering unto Caesar" - inside a church or not, crimes were committed on the soil of sovereign nations.

It would go a long way for survivors and say a lot to a lot of people who, even without religion, look towards the Vatican as a "disinterested" (non-affiliated) party in the world

Dolores del Castillo
5 days 13 hours ago

Dolores del Castillo
I am disappointed about the way the US bishops are addressing the sexual abuse issue. This is not the first time that a scandal of this nature has surfaced, this is just the last and due to the way news are spread through social media etc the most talked about. I am 76 years old. practicing Catholic and have been living in the US for the last 50 years. The culture of the Catholic Church for many hundreds of years has been to cover up any issues specially the sexual abuse issues erroneously believing it will harm the Church. The issues with Cardinal Mc Carrick and others was going on way before Pope Francis, and there was cover up. The fact that the emphasis is on having Pope Francis resign does not make sense. The letter from Cardinal Vigano has to be investigated. It seems to me that he knew and also kept it secret. The issue the Church is facing is more difficult and include an honest discussion including the bishops, cardinals etc., putting the Church that Jesus built on the rock that was Peter as the priority. You are shepperds of the flock, of all of us. Praying for you.

Elaine Boyle
5 days 11 hours ago

Dolores, it's the women of the church who can finally speak out against homosexual networks and gay priests. Sure, they walk with us on feminist topics, but that is no reason for women to continue to support gays, solely because they agree with us against heterosexual men. Stopping abuse of our sons and nephews by pederasts takes precedence over feminism.

J Brookbank
5 days 10 hours ago

Elaine, feminism is not "against heterosexual men". Feminism is about the equality of all human beings.

Elaine Boyle
5 days 10 hours ago

Do you agree that stopping abuse of our sons and nephews by pederasts takes precedence over allying with gays?

J Brookbank
5 days 10 hours ago

Everyone should be protected from any and all sexual predators.

You have created a false narrative about feminism, prevention of sexual abuse and prevention of bigoted RCC church policies re: gay men.

Tim O'Leary
5 days 7 hours ago

J - Feminism has never been about the equality for all human beings. They often exclude men, but always exclude the unborn, and are world's strongest advocates of killing them.

J Brookbank
5 days 3 hours ago

When men are excluded systematically, in most circumstances what you are describing is separatism and sexism, not feminism.

With regard to the issue of abortion and feminism, I believe you pose one argument in an intellectually, spiritually and morally legitimate debate.

The contextually relevant point I was making is that the feminist movement is not allied, in the handshake deal against heterosexual men Elaine fantasizes, with the LGBT movement because "both are are against straight men".

Neither the feminist nor the LGBT community is "against straight men"; they are for the equality of all (with acknowledgment that the reproductive rights issue poses a legitimate argument to that feminist position). The focus on heterosexual men is due to that demographic having held most power for most of recorded history. That simply requires that power be redistributed and, while that does require men to participate, that does NOT require the exclusion of men.

Elaine's narrative reflects a misreading of history.

Elaine Boyle
4 days 23 hours ago

DENIER:

“The feminist movement is not allied, in the handshake deal against heterosexual men Elaine fantasizes, with the LGBT movement because "both are are against straight men".”

Mike Theman
5 days 12 hours ago

The Church has been attacked for its position on same-sex attraction and homosexual sodomy. Meanwhile, it has recruited countless numbers of priests with same-sex attraction who seek to engage in homosexual sodomy with male minors and adult seminarians and other priests.

If the Church just practiced what it preaches and kept men with deep-seated same-sex attraction out of the priesthood, it wouldn't be in this predicament and thousands of boys and men would have been spared. Homosexual attraction is not just a problem for the Church, and if the Church would lead the way instead of being led by modernist culture promoting homosexuality as good, it could strengthen the Church and strengthen the United States. The homosexual experiment has failed (again).

Elaine Boyle
5 days 11 hours ago

Clear as day. You are totally correct. It's women who have been the enablers of gay priests. Straight men are naturally and instinctually revolted in the presence of homosexuals. It's women who have embraced the gay predators, because some women look for allies in pushing feminism, and gay priests are generally supportive of that.

But now we see that the ABUSE far outweighs having allies in pushing feminism. Gays can no longer be tolerated because they abuse our sons, brothers, nephews, husbands, fathers, etc. No feminism agenda is worth allying with predators and perverts who abuse.

J Brookbank
5 days 10 hours ago

Elaine, feminism is not a movement against men. It is a movement focused on the achievement of the equality of all human beings. That is why feminist men and women advocate for all people who are treated systematically and specifically as unequal. Thus, feminist men and women advocate against all perpetrators of sexual abuse, harassment and abuse of power, regardless of the identity of the perpetrator.

For example, it was a failure of some feminists that Monica Lewinsky was demonized when she was identified in the Bill Clinton scandal. Clinton's actions and descriptions of this young woman were despicable. And, in that case, some feminists did "choose the wrong side". That was evident at the time and it is evident now and it is going to remain evident in history.

I say that as a woman, as a feminist and as a Democrat.

Yes, our sons, brothers, husbands, cousins and boyfriends should be safe and protected from sexual abuse and harassment by and all sexual predators. Be those predators gay men, straight men, straight women, gay women.

Everyone should be safe from every sexual predator. THAT is the feminist position.

Christopher Lowery
4 days 11 hours ago

Well said!

Jeffrey Smith
5 days 6 hours ago

Stop blaming gay people for this tragedy.

J Brookbank
5 days ago

I agree,Jeffrey

Elaine Boyle
4 days 23 hours ago

Catholics are not buying the “clericalism” lie, so heinously put forth by the likes of Cupich and Francis.

Look, all Catholics know we have too many gay priests, we all know gay priests hate the true orthodox faith of the saints and Apostles, we all know gay priests in our schools who hit on boys. Why would anyone defend these types?!

Elaine Boyle
4 days 23 hours ago

As they say, Do the Math. It’s a gay problem!

A Fielder
4 days 18 hours ago

I agree, we have too many gay priests who have been coerced into celibacy with our antiquated sexual ethic; we should be encouraging monogamy.

Jorge Luis Luaces Rabaza
5 days 12 hours ago

Notice who is smiling in the above photo: DiNardo.....totally clueless, totally out of his league.
To think he is the president of the US conference. No wonder police arrested one of his priests right under his leadership for abusing victims in 2002. DiNardo should follow the footsteps of the bishop of Wheeling, West Virginia Michael Bransfield: resign

Elaine Boyle
5 days 11 hours ago

DiNardo is smiling because he's in sunny Italy!! Everyone loves it there, except Pope Francis. Vigano agrees with you Bill, they should ALL resign including Pope Francis who's also a cover-up proponent.

Reyanna Rice
5 days 2 hours ago

Ugh! You are repugnant in your calumnious statements about the pope and gay men! You do know, right, that calumny, the telling of lies to purposefully destroy someone’s reputation, is a mortal sin? When you make these kinds of statements with no credible documentation to back up what you are saying, intending to destroy someone’s reputation that is calumny! Just stop it if you care for your immortal soul!!

Elaine Boyle
4 days 23 hours ago

Salvini is correct, the heinous push for open borders in Italy is led by leftist racists who don’t value the Italian people as a distinct minority on this planet! Italians are splendid as is their culture, known the world over. Francis, despite being Italian, sides with the anti-Italian racists. Francis is strange and bizarre. He should resign, the Church deserves better and a more merciful person. He’s not at all pastoral for the Italians who are a distinct minority/culture globally.

Michael Barberi
5 days 12 hours ago

The recent news reports told us that Cardinal DiNardo will be meeting with Pope Francis to get his approval about a proposed plan to formulate a national lay-lead impartial committee to investigate this sexual abuse crisis (e.g., the Grand Jury Report, the entire McCormick scandal and Vigano's letter). Cardinal DiNardo was also expected to ask Pope Francis for Apostolic participation in this lay-lead investigative committee. After all, only the Pope can discipline, sanction or defrock a Bishop and Cardinal. Without Vatican participation and cooperation, the USCCB investigation will be a joke.

This silence is deafening and extremely disappointing. I hope we will hear some positive news soon.

Elaine Boyle
5 days 12 hours ago

"No details"
""He listened very deeply from the heart"

Meaningless. Why should we expect ANYTHING from Francis? He never answered the Dubia. He never answered Vigano. He won't sit down with two sides who interpret AL differently. He says that the family is Man-Woman, but he supports homosexuality and Fr. Martin. We won't get anything concrete and he's going to kick the can until late Feb 2019. Until then, nobody will listen to him about his left-wing political topics as his credibility is lacerated.

Michael Barberi
5 days 8 hours ago

Elaine,

You seem to be highly critical of Pope Francis but not B16 or JP II especially given that Vigano clearly accused JP II of promoting McCarrick to a Cardinal when his sexual abuse of seminarians was widely known by several Bishops/Cardinals in the U.S. and Vatican officials responsible for handling such complaints. I am sure you know that JP II has also been highly criticized for his handling of Maciel as well. Ratzinger as Prefect of the CDF advised him and the Vatican Secretary of State of the many sexual crimes and immoral sexual behavior of Maciel. However, JP II did nothing to Maciel. Only when Ratzinger become Pope Benedict XVI did he sanction Maciel. Frankly, Maciel should have been defrocked.

Vigano also accused B16 of sanctioning McCarrick but when he clearly ignored the sanctions, B16 did nothing about it. Yet, despite all of this, you seem to only criticize Pope Francis about not doing anything about McCarrick until recently. I will not go into a debate with you about each of these popes. I only want to point out what appears to me to be a disjointed and biased viewpoint.

I believe you are an intelligent woman and while I don't agree with your characterization of Pope Francis, I think you can make a stronger argument by being more balanced.. While many of these accusations concerning the past 3 popes might be true, we cannot jump to conclusions and judge them until we investigate these accusations and uncover the complete truth. We need to acknowledge that there may be good reasons for some of these accusations. For example, we already know that many of Vigano claims are not true. Once we know the truth, we can bring those guilty to justice and institute the structural, process and juridical reforms we need.

Dennis Hayes
5 days 11 hours ago

these fellows need a reality sandwich.

Elaine Boyle
5 days 10 hours ago

DiNardo is really looking forward to an Italian dinner and some good food. He can't wait for the meeting to end, look at the pic!

Molly Roach
5 days 9 hours ago

Elaine, I have noted that Cardinal DiNardo does not seem to have control of his face--in this and in another picture I have seen, he strikes me as a high school sophomore hoping for some entertainment rather than an adult in the middle of a very sobering situation. Maybe it's just nerves but somebody ought to tell him.

Reyanna Rice
5 days 2 hours ago

Take into consideration that modern photography, which Vatican media uses, can take several hundred pictures in a second or two, catching each little change in facial expression as someone moves through those changes. They can capture an image that may not reflect at all what a person is expressing or thinking in a given second.

A Fielder
4 days 18 hours ago

Also consider that many people are conditioned to “smile for the camera” regardless of the context or there actual emotions. People are making way too much of this one attempted facial expression.

Jim Spangler
5 days 8 hours ago

I presume that this photo is to influence our thoughts that all is well and in good hands, with Papa Francis and his subordinates. Reading the article today about Francis covering up his sex abuse cases in Argentina before he became Pope does not give me much hope that anything will take place. These type of photos are made by the regime in power to give the effect that all is well, and we are steering the ship in the right direction. We will not hear anything from the Vatican, or the Bishops of the U. S. until we are turning blue from holding our breaths. Keep your eyes on the Cross and Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the Scriptures, because there is not an honest man who will break the silence! Lord send down Your Spirit and renew the face of the Church. Root out those who are guilty of abuse and cover ups. Shame them into resignation, open the files, prosecute those that are guilty. I look at how passive we have become in this day and age, like we cannot do a thing. In other times, folks would have been in the streets with their pitchforks etc. and torching buildings. Perhaps we need to be rethinking how our reactions are displayed. Not advocating violence, but realizing how paralyzed we are. The Laity has no power, and yet every piece of property that the Church owns came from the Laities pockets, or slave labor. The power structure is no longer a sound trustworthy chain of command. The Hierarchy needs to have checks and controls on it, and not done within their ranks. Laity needs to be the primary overseers. I've moved from amiration of Pope Francis to his resignation. It needs to happen soon. He is not an innocent man! (Oh, did I say "man", yes, he is just a man!)

Reyanna Rice
5 days 2 hours ago

There are no credible cases of cover up that Jorge Mario Bergoglio is even remotely implicated in in Argentina. Main journalists have delved into that from the beginning of his pontificate and there are none. Also, the conclave that elected him was well aware of needing to elect a pope who had no whiff of cover up against him. They were checking out potential candidates from the get go. They wouldn’t have elected him if there was any taint. If you are reading that he covered up cases in the Buenos Aires Archdiocese, it’s someone writing with an axe to grind against him.

Elaine Boyle
4 days 23 hours ago

Wrong.

Jim Spangler
4 days 14 hours ago

I agree Elaine! Wrong, they need to do a bit more research, as there is a very informative article about Pope Francis in his Diocese before becoming the Pope!

Will Niermeyer
5 days 7 hours ago

A story in my newspaper today revealed the in the dioceses of Cardinal Daniel N. DiNardo a priest who he was told about in terms of his sex abusiveness to boys was hidden by this Cardinal and the guy was reassigned to another parish. The priest now faces 20 years in prison. Why didn't DiNardo come forward with this and safe other boys from being subjects of this priests sex abusiveness.

sheila gray
5 days 7 hours ago

Please help me get the info to the right people that Survivors need a Healing Center NOW, at least one, for God’s sake. I have contacted as many people as I know. I have been crying from the rooftops that we need a Healing Center, Why not here, in the US? New York, California, Missouri. It does not matter. Who should I contact. I believe healing from clergy abuse is about learning to unconditional the conditioned mind. Also, the only sane way forward for the CC is to learn again how to preach the Faith without conditioning, without brainwashing. Jesus did not brainwash anyone. “Love and you can do none harm.” Please help me help others. Thank You.

Henry Brown
5 days 6 hours ago

Can we get a timeline from America concerning McCarrick.

When were accusations first made against him ?
When did he starting having "nephews" that he visited ?
[The man who is now in his early 60's say McCarrick took advantage
of him in the late 1960's.
When do we have official letters of concern/complaint filed ?
What did the Vatican know and when did it know it ?

Did John Paul II, Benedict XVI, Francis ever see these documents ?

Why was McCarrick allowed to retire to a Seminary ?

Likewise for other Bishops who misused their power/authority.

America do your job
and provide the information in a clear and concise manner.

Crystal Watson
5 days 5 hours ago

The photo of Francis and his bishops/cardinals reminds me of those chummy PR photos of Trump and his cabinet. Not comforting.

Vincent Gaglione
4 days 18 hours ago

Besides the obvious, the embarrassment and shame concomitant with the exposure of so many instances of clergy sexual abuse, both towards children and adults, I am most disturbed by the loss of moral and teaching authority of bishops, clergy and religious in the current climate. My Irish grandmother used to comment cynically on clergy as moral leaders who tell you, “Do as I say, not as I do.” Apparently, she was more right than even she probably understood. Not that it isn’t inconsistent with the appropriate perception of the Catholic Church, all of us are sinners in need of reconciliation and redemption throughout our lives.

One of the problems has been the arrogance of power and lack of humility exercised by bishops, clergy, and religious in Catholic institutions in the USA over the past 100 years. Some of us, at one or another time or even throughout our lives, mistook that arrogance as the prerogative of clergy and religious. That perception has gone out the window with the salaciousness of recent, and as it turns out, former events. They are no different than the rest of us!

There are many good bishops, clergy and religious. They have been smeared, unfortunately, with the public perceptions. Some of them, however, have retreated into silence as their laity and congregations must deal daily in the public secular sphere with news stories that are an embarrassment and a shame to believing Catholics. In so doing they further damage their moral and teaching authority. They must witness their shame and embarrassment as well. They must express their own sense of bewilderment that the rest of us feel. They must be genuine and empathetic to their laity. Otherwise, like so many have done already, even more will abandon their faith. That will become an even greater scandal than the revelation of the sins that we now learn about.

charles hoffman
4 days 18 hours ago

What's lacerated the Church is the continuing organized efforts to ignore and cover-up the problems.

It's not a new problem; in fact, the problem has existed for decades and decades.
And the continuing cover-up has sent a clear message to molesters: "Don't worry; we'll cover your tracks".

Anyone who committed any act, anyone who covered up any act, and anyone who knew of anyone covering up any act should be thrown out of any position of authority, lose any status, and be banned from participating in church affairs for life

Start new or carry the cancer that can always come back,

And, for God's sakes - let priests live normal lives with wives

John Chuchman
4 days 17 hours ago

Pope Francis
has outlined his vision for a church
with everyone listening to one another,
learning from one another
and taking responsibility for each other.

I feel that those of us in the reform movement
have spent far too many years
trying to communicate with a deaf hierarchy
trying convince them
of the necessity of reform and restructuring.

I am convinced
beyond any doubt
that trying to change them
is fruitless.

Institutional church itself will not be reformed.
To be reformed it would need to completely reinvent itself.
It cannot do that.
Its own theological foundations do not permit it.
The bishops and pope can hold many councils, commissions, etc.,
to reform itself
but without abandoning its foundations it is a hopeless task.

Consequently, our strategy must be
to no longer to put energy into reforming the institutional church,
which is beyond repair,
but rather to focus on
re-founding the Church
in the spirit of the early followers
of Jesus.

The Vatican is not the Church.

By virtue of our baptism,
WE are the Church
and have the responsibility
to enrich the future leadership and management of our church.

But how?

What IS within our power to do
is to join or start small faith communities
by whatever name they are called in various parts of the world:
Small Faith Groups,
Intentional Eucharistic Communities (IECs),
Base Christian Communities (CEBs),
Small Christian Communities (SCCs),
House Churches,
Home Churches.

The time has come for us to re-found our Church.
We may be powerless to reform the institutional church
but we are able to change how we function within Church.

We must all stop funding
a corrupt self-serving hierarchy
using our donations
to defend and perpetuate
its unholy ways.

Whether you are an active reformer
or a pewsitter
who has been sitting there Sunday after Sunday,
let us each do our part
to be the Church
we had hoped the institutional Church would become
one that is inclusive, forgiving, and welcoming
of ALL people.

John Chuchman
4 days 17 hours ago

Pope Francis
has outlined his vision for a church
with everyone listening to one another,
learning from one another
and taking responsibility for each other.

I feel that those of us in the reform movement
have spent far too many years
trying to communicate with a deaf hierarchy
trying convince them
of the necessity of reform and restructuring.

I am convinced
beyond any doubt
that trying to change them
is fruitless.

Institutional church itself will not be reformed.
To be reformed it would need to completely reinvent itself.
It cannot do that.
Its own theological foundations do not permit it.
The bishops and pope can hold many councils, commissions, etc.,
to reform itself
but without abandoning its foundations it is a hopeless task.

Consequently, our strategy must be
to no longer to put energy into reforming the institutional church,
which is beyond repair,
but rather to focus on
re-founding the Church
in the spirit of the early followers
of Jesus.

The Vatican is not the Church.

By virtue of our baptism,
WE are the Church
and have the responsibility
to enrich the future leadership and management of our church.

But how?

What IS within our power to do
is to join or start small faith communities
by whatever name they are called in various parts of the world:
Small Faith Groups,
Intentional Eucharistic Communities (IECs),
Base Christian Communities (CEBs),
Small Christian Communities (SCCs),
House Churches,
Home Churches.

The time has come for us to re-found our Church.
We may be powerless to reform the institutional church
but we are able to change how we function within Church.

We must all stop funding
a corrupt self-serving hierarchy
using our donations
to defend and perpetuate
its unholy ways.

Whether you are an active reformer
or a pewsitter
who has been sitting there Sunday after Sunday,
let us each do our part
to be the Church
we had hoped the institutional Church would become
one that is inclusive, forgiving, and welcoming
of ALL people.

Mister Mckee
4 days 15 hours ago

Any and all meetings with DiNardo even in the room are a SHAM and must be treated as such by all sentient Catholics. His immediate demission from the USCCB and the Houston archdiocese are the only signs of good faith that Francis now has to offer his church. Di Nardo is concrete proof of the problem and unless he is removed, then the hierarchy have lost all credibility.
https://apnews.com/7eddd913931a49dca0eeddf9e47c6c5b
By their FRUITS ye shall know them!

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