Cardinal Michael Czerny, 78, is one of four Jesuits who will cast their vote in the conclave that opens on May 7 to elect the 266th successor of St. Peter.
Born in Czechoslovakia, his family emigrated from the Communist-run country when he was just 2 years old and found refuge in Canada, where he studied and joined the Jesuits. After working closely with Francis during his 12-year pontificate and in recent years as prefect of the Dicastery for Integral Human Development, he will enter the conclave as one of the four Canadian cardinals to elect the next leader of the world’s 1.4 billion Catholics.
While many of the 133 electors from 70 countries have steered clear of journalists in the run-up to the conclave, Cardinal Czerny said he considers meeting the press as part of his preparation for the heavy responsibility of voting to elect the next pope. For this reason, he has given many interviews, including to me and two colleagues, in his apartment at the Jesuit Curia in Rome on April 30.
The following interview was edited for clarity and length.
Gerard O’Connell: You’ve known Francis for many years. What did you feel when you heard the news of his death?
Cardinal Czerny: I heard it because Father Joseph, my assistant, told me. I was on a bus going to Pescara for an Easter holiday, and he sent me a WhatsApp. By the time I reached Pescara, I decided I couldn’t stay and took the next bus back to Rome. I must say it was a bit funny as I was in the midst of some teenagers and suddenly one said, “His father died,” and then the other one said: “No, no, it’s not his father. It’s the pope, il Papa.”
There is this combination of sorrow and gratitude; the sorrow is great, the gratitude is greater.
Gratitude because he was a great, great pope, a great friend, and [gratitude] for the chance to work together. Gratitude for the amazing contributions he made both to the magisterium, to the life of the church, to the Roman Curia and for his endless accomplishments.
How would you summarize the legacy of Francis?
I say the legacy can be read through the great documents: “Evangelii Gaudium,” “Laudato Si’,” “Fratelli Tutti.” The overall story is the renewal of the church. The joy of evangelizing: That’s the essence of the church, to evangelize the world. The world is in flames. It is an intrinsic part of our vocation to care for the common home. It is not accidental or secondary or optional; it’s part of what it means to be a Christian, to be a believer.
Society is also in flames. You see all the failures in our living together and the answer, already in “Laudato Si’,” was dialogue. The more elaborate answer for the whole social public sphere was “Fratelli Tutti.”
And finally our hearts: [going] back to the source of our Christian life, which is the love of God made incarnate in Jesus Christ and symbolized by the heart of Christ (“Dilexit Nos.”)
You say correctly that the world is in flames, and society is in flames. What are the big challenges of the church today?
What I learned from Francis is that I cannot answer your question. I cannot answer your question because you have to ask the question from somewhere. In other words, when you view the world from a satellite, it looks like you see the whole thing, but in fact, you see nothing. You have to ask the question from where people are, and the question you ask is different in Bolivia and in Johannesburg and in Hong Kong. So, yes, there are many issues. If you want to know a huge issue for the world, ask the U.N. Don’t ask us. We’re not interested in the issues in general.
So the church’s interest is in people where they are?
People where they are and the priorities they have and the real obstacles to that. This is my job; the real obstacles to their integral human development. The real ones. I don’t want to talk about migration. I want to talk about migrants, and that changes the discourse.
You asked me earlier what I have learned from Francis. The great thing is that his first premise is always the suffering, those who suffer. And everything else adjusts itself as a response, or as an accompaniment or a reconciliation with the people who suffer. And that’s how his approach is so pastoral because he starts with people and not with abstraction, such as migration. [For him] reality is more important; so reality takes primacy, like it did for Jesus with the suffering [people]. Jesus could never resist that, nor could Francis.
Is there a danger that the next conclave could look very much to inside Rome and the church and not to this view?
The composition of the conclave is so global. So the answer is no.
This is the largest general congregation in history. What is the climate? Is it a tower of Babel? Do you perceive itas divided because you have 252 cardinals from 96 countries?
I think I would say the climate is serious. I would not say risk or danger. I would say just serious. I think we’re all perfectly aware that we share a heavy responsibility.
What should be the qualities of the next pope after someone like Francis?
I think we should not say that; it’s not a pope after Francis. It’s the next successor of Peter. We’re starting now. This is the pope for 2025 and following, not a continuation of 2013.
Some are saying that because of Francis, the polarization grew a lot inside the church. Do you agree?
I think the most significant thing about polarization that I can say is I don’t think we know. It’s so much a topic of interest for your whole industry. It’s something kind of interesting to talk about, and we don’t really know from any other source except from the media. My imagination or my feeling, and I think it’s shared by many but not all, is that, yes, there’s polarization. But those of us who are old enough to remember can remember polarization already under Paul VI and [the popes] following him.
I don’t know if we would use the word polarization before John XXIII. Then it was a different way of being Catholic. This kind of behavior was out of the question then.
How do you respond to those who say Francis created confusion?
It’s a very confusing world, and a church that fulfills its vocation is going to cause confusion. I think Jesus caused a lot of confusion. A lot.
What do you say to those who say publicly that we must now find a pope who brings back unity to the church and end the confusion?
You can say it in public or in private, but I’ve said it already in public. Unity is a gift of the Holy Spirit to the church, who is conducting its mission to evangelize through a church that goes out of itself. Unity is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Unity is a great gift, a very important gift, but it cannot be a strategy. It cannot be a program.
There is a lot of speculation in the Italian media that after 47 years, the papacy can return to Italy. Do you think there could be a return?
I can understand and even sympathize with this speculation, especially in the Italian press, but I cannot imagine that it would affect the vote of the electors. I can’t imagine any elector saying, “After 47 years, it’s time to vote for an Italian.” This to me is absolutely impossible. It’s just so outside of the categories of any importance. I become agitated when they say it’s time for an American, it’s time for an African, it’s time for a South Islander. I think that is so stupid. It’s time for the successor of Peter for 2025. The priority is evangelization; to bring the Gospel to society in season and out of season; to bring the Gospel to all of creation.
Francis, right from his first document, “Evangelii Gaudium,” said we want a missionary church, and then he started processes to achieve that synodal church. Do you see a risk of this being rolled back by the next pope?
The question makes no sense. A pope should not think of rolling something back; he should think of the challenge of bringing the Gospel or the challenge of promoting integral human development. These are equivalent expressions now. What do we need to do? We will draw on things from the past, and we will use things that are new. Jesus said that himself.
Some of your brother cardinals in interviews with the press have said that now we must remove confusion and restore order in the church.
Yes, there should be more order. Yes, there should be more unity. Yes, there should be more creativity. Yes, there should be more reaching out to the many peripheries, to the many black holes, if you like, to places where the Gospel is not penetrating.
What’s your dream for this conclave?
I’m really looking forward to knowing the successor of Peter whom the Holy Spirit indicates to guide the church from 2025 onward. I think I will be as surprised as you when I find out who it is.
Do you think it will be a short conclave?
If it is brief, afterward, I will tell you. All I can say now is that it will be just the right length.
How do you feel in your heart? How are you preparing for it?
Well, partly, it’s what I’m doing right now. I think it’s very important for me to be in dialogue with the press. So that’s part of my preparation. Otherwise, I eat and sleep and try to pray. It’s a heavy responsibility.
