In a surprise move last Oct. 6, Pope Francis appointed Baldassare Reina, 54, as vicar general of the Diocese of Rome and named him cardinal. Some weeks later, he named him archbishop of the papal Basilica of St. John Lateran.
It was a meteoric rise for the young Sicilian-born priest whom Francis first appointed as auxiliary bishop of the Rome diocese in May 2022.
In January 2023, the pope appointed him viceregent with a mandate to reform the diocese. Cardinal Reina said the pope told him: “I want the church in Rome to be exemplary in everything—from financial transparency to staff management to pastoral priorities aligned with what I’m giving to the universal church.”
“I’ve tried to offer my life and my meager abilities in service of his vision,” the cardinal said.
In this exclusive interview on May 1 at the Rome seminary where he lives, behind St. John Lateran’s Basilica and next to the pontifical Lateran University, the cardinal, who has a humble style like that of Francis, spoke to my wife, Elisabetta Piqué, the Vatican correspondent for La Nación, and me about his relationship with Pope Francis.
Cardinal Reina first met Francis on the island of Lampedusa when the pope went there on his first journey outside the Vatican in 2013. “I’m from Agrigento [in Sicily]. I was there welcoming Pope Francis along with a group of priests,” the cardinal said. “I realized this pope was different when, in his homily, he asked: ‘Who weeps for those who die at sea?’” He recalled that Francis came just after “one of the many tragedies” of migrants drowning off the island and denounced the “globalization of indifference.” He remarked, “That’s when I said, we are witnessing something great.”
Cardinal Reina’s first private audience with Francis came in June 2022, just before he was ordained a bishop. Since then, he has met the pope many times. The last time was in Casa Santa Marta on April 10, after the pope was discharged from the hospital. “He spoke slowly, but he was very lucid,” the cardinal said. “He asked us some questions about the life of the diocese. We shared what we’d been doing. He remembered everything perfectly. We found him in good form—always his usual humor. At one point, I said to him, ‘Your complexion looks good,’ and he replied, ‘I wasn’t that sick in the hospital.’”
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Gerard O’Connell: How would you explain the legacy of Pope Francis?
Cardinal Reina: I would explain it using one of the principles he stated in “Evangelii Gaudium,” that is, we should not be preoccupied with occupying spaces but with initiating processes. Pope Francis had the courage to begin many processes within a church that needed reform, and still does, starting with synodality. Let’s start from the most recent: the role of women, the formation of seminarians, the reform of the curia. All these are open processes. Dialogue with so-called “irregular situations.” He initiated all of this with great courage because he placed himself at the service of truth and understood that the Gospel must always engage with the concrete reality lived by men and women of every time.
Now it’s up to us to receive this legacy and accompany the processes he set in motion, to accompany and organize them. Certainly, some things need to be revisited, but we cannot forget everything he courageously opened.
Some cardinals charge that Pope Francis created too much confusion, and say his papacy was marked by rupture, and now we need order again. They accuse him of having internally polarized the church. Do you feel this way, too?
Absolutely not. Pope Francis always described the scene of Pentecost. He would say the Holy Spirit came to shake things up. Recounting the Acts of the Apostles, which describes the moment the Spirit arrives—the wind, tongues like fire—there was great confusion even among the apostles. Then one must listen to the Spirit to discern. Discernment was a key word in Pope Francis’ magisterium. I absolutely do not see this confusion. Pope Francis was always in line with the [church’s] doctrine, with the magisterium, with the church’s tradition.
He had the courage to engage with the realities people live today, for example, the situations of divorced and remarried persons, and always in a Gospel spirit: He used to say reality is more important than ideas, and reality is what we see before our eyes every day. To act as if that reality didn’t exist would be foolish.
I don’t at all agree with the idea of a papacy that created disorder. His was a papacy that took on the disquiet of many people and sought to respond with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In Pope Francis, many people recognized the Gospel. Since he was laid to rest at Santa Maria Maggiore, the lines have been endless. The crowd at the funeral wasn’t just emotional; it was people convinced enough to travel thousands of miles to pay tribute to a man who, with all his limits, managed to translate the Gospel for today.
In that context, what do you think the profile of his successor should be?
The profile is that of a man who, with great humility, knows how to take up Pope Francis’ legacy and continue the dialogue with the world. I believe Pope Francis was a great interpreter of Vatican II. That council, guided so masterfully by Paul VI, had dialogue with the world as its hallmark. This year marks 60 years since “Gaudium et Spes.” Dialogue with the world is one of the church’s urgent tasks today. Whoever follows Francis must take up the legacy of Vatican II and of Pope Francis and engage the world without fear because we have the Gospel. Precisely because of this, we can dialogue with everyone.
In your homily for the novemdiales, you counseled to not be afraid. It seems you’re aware that a part of the church wants to take a step backward. Do you fear a step backward?
Resistance to Pope Francis’ magisterium didn’t just appear now in the pre-conclave meetings; it’s been there all along, just with different tones. Think of what happened after “Amoris Laetitia” and the reactions to the Synod on Synodality. Pope Francis was aware of it, but he carried on, simply and with great determination. I’m not afraid. Just as the Spirit, 12 years ago, raised up Pope Francis—a great prophet—I’m convinced the Spirit will continue to seek and find someone with the same prophetic spirit, who will continue the reform process Pope Francis began.
Do you think such a man could be Italian? There’s a lot of pressure, especially after 47 years, for the next pope to be Italian. Have you felt that?
I don’t think nationality should be the main concern. The real concern for the College of Cardinals should be to find the right man for this moment. Whether he’s Italian or from another country doesn’t matter. What matters is that he continues the work begun by Francis.
How would you describe this moment?
This is a difficult time. We’re all worried about countless crises. The Western world faces a severe demographic crisis and a decline in religious practice. Africa faces other forms of poverty. Asia contends with other religions but is very vibrant; the last apostolic journey Francis made in that part of the world testified to a very lively church.
We’re all worried. The wars that afflicted Pope Francis have afflicted the whole world. It’s a truly complex time we live in. The church today is not what it was 40 or 50 years ago. Pope Francis knew that very well. Pope Benedict even said, “Let’s prepare to be a minority church,” back when churches and piazzas were still full. That is no longer the case. So to expect to be a majority voice when we’re a minority would be foolish.
The church must continue in the logic of the kingdom: the seed sown in the soil, the yeast in the dough. The difficulties are real and will continue. It’s a complicated world, which is why, as I said, we must dialogue with it; we can’t oppose it. Pope Francis always said: We must build bridges.
Think of what he did with the leaders of South Sudan—he knelt and kissed their feet. Those gestures say something. Those gestures are magisterial gestures, and that’s what we need. When people in South Sudan are still killing each other today, what should a pope do? Declare an excommunication? Pope Francis chose another way, the way of Francis of Assisi. He went there, knelt and kissed [their feet]. He said, “Please, let’s try to make peace.” That’s what it means to live the papacy, to interpret it through the Gospel.
Do you sense that these kinds of thoughts are also emerging in the general congregations?
Yes, they emerge from the stories of various cardinals who come from all over the world. Many concerns surface; everyone shares their story, their region, the problems they face. Many, for instance, highlight the issue of the lack of vocations. Our seminaries and religious institutes are dramatically emptying. Just walk around Rome and you’ll see African priests or Filipino or Vietnamese sisters. The vocations crisis is a serious problem. Pope Francis taught us that one possible path forward is witness. He was a witness to the Gospel, and young people need witness and witnesses.
Pope Francis, especially in his final years—and already in “Evangelii Gaudium”—emphasized synodality, the synodal church. How do you summarize that?
I summarize it with a saying of St. Paul: that God is present in everyone and acts through everyone. The church is the people of God. The Holy Spirit is not the monopoly of a few. The hierarchy is at the service of the holy people of God. The Spirit speaks through everyone, and Pope Francis, through the concept of synodality, reminded pastors that the Spirit is present in the faithful, too, by virtue of their baptism, and that we have a duty to listen to the Spirit working in and through all people. It’s an exercise we weren’t used to because it’s easier to imagine the hierarchy listening to the magisterium and laying down the lines. Pope Francis reminded us of our duty to listen to lay people.
Extraordinary things have come out of that. Bishops who activated synodal teams in their dioceses discovered this liveliness of the Spirit because the faithful who live real life bring you their experience of faith, too, helping you see perspectives that you, as a pastor, may not have considered. The Spirit speaks. Pope Francis was utterly convinced of this and moved forward with great courage, and we all know how many obstacles he had to face.
So you don’t foresee a rollback?
A step backward? I hope not. It’s a matter of style. Pope Francis said many times: Synodality is not a document to produce; it’s a style to acquire. I think this style absolutely needs to be strengthened: the style of synodality.
