Brené Brown on Jesus and vulnerable spirituality

Over the last few years, I had heard Brené Brown spoken of in almost reverential tones, often by women, but occasionally by Jesuit friends who had viewed her wildly popular YouTube videos (one has over 20 million views) on topics like vulnerability and shame. But it wasn’t until I mentioned to a few friends that I was interviewing her for the final episode of our first season of “The Spiritual Life” that I truly understood how beloved she is. (Our second season will start in the new year.)

“I LOVE HER!!!” someone commented during a Friday faith-sharing group on my public Facebook page. “You’re interviewing BRENE BROWN?” another friend wrote. “Tell her she CHANGED MY LIFE!!!” (I’m not making up those all-cap remarks.

In preparation for our conversation, I watched several of her videos and dipped into her superb new book, Strong Ground, on developing leadership skills, and prepared myself for a fun conversation.

I was not disappointed! This was one of the most enjoyable conversations I’ve ever had, mainly because Brené is so open (vulnerable, she might say) as she speaks about her faith. Unusual in a podcast with someone so well known, she was not shy about pausing, thinking aloud and even admitting that she saw some things in a new way thanks to our conversation. I appreciated her openness immensely. 

One area I found especially fascinating. Every time I listened to one of her speeches that touched on the importance of being open and vulnerable (and setting aside one’s “armor,” as she says memorably), I wanted to ask her, “What do you think about Jesus?” That is, Jesus is not only “tough,” as she says in our conversation, but also uniquely vulnerable. After all, Jesus enters the world in the most vulnerable way possible, as an infant, and leaves the world in the most vulnerable way possible, naked on a cross, exposed to all who pass by.

So I was surprised when Brené said that she sometimes found Jesus hard to relate to. In my experience, people more often say that God the Father is the “distant” or “difficult” relationship, since God is sometimes seen as judgmental, while the Son is often viewed as more accessible. Brené said that this may have to do with Jesus being, in a sense, co-opted by people and groups she disagrees with.

“And so it’s hard when I talk about it,” she said. “When you say the word, Jesus, I automatically create space between me and people I love and care for, and fight for.”

This brought up an important issue in the spiritual life, which is looking at Jesus (or God the Father) as he is, rather than as he is presented to us.

In spiritual direction, people often tell me that they view God the Father as harsh, judgmental and even vindictive. But when I ask about their own direct experience of God (that is, in their own prayer or in their daily lives), they say that they experience God as calming, gentle or compassionate. How they experience God is often in contrast to what they think of God, or what they feel that they have been taught. In response, I will often say that you need to experience not “your God” (the God that lives in your mind and may not be an accurate representation of the divine) but the Living God. 

It’s the same with Jesus. When we meet the Jesus of the Gospels, we can let go of some of the harmful stereotypes of Jesus that don’t represent him at all. (For example, Jesus hates gay people.) Of course, it can’t just be “your Jesus,” and we learn immensely from the church, from tradition and, yes, from other people. But it also can’t be a Jesus of someone else’s making, especially if they are trying to make Jesus in their own image. We need to meet the Father on the Father’s terms and Jesus on Jesus’ terms. And the Spirit on the Spirit’s terms.

My conversation with Brené Brown could have gone on for six hours, so rich and open and helpful was it—for both of us, I think. I know you’ll enjoy it. And I look forward to sharing conversations with other fascinating believers in a few weeks, on the second season of “The Spiritual Life.” In the meantime, enjoy our newest conversation and check out all the rest from our first season!